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    Pandemic Legion Declares Cyber War on Killboards 

    by
    mazzilliu
    Published on 2010-07-29 12:32 PM

    We had a moral point to make in here somewhere, but I think it got lost in the fact that Pandemic Legion like to ruin everything.

    Crapheap thread with some good stuff in it: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/v...ic.php?t=36110

    summary of the story:
    It all started when Karbowiak the admin of eve-kill.net was scraping the PL boards for killmails, since we run custom KB software and didn't write any code to sync with other killboards. he coded the scraper wrong or something, and it never stopped running, and shut down our killboard for about 16 or so hours. when ander got wind of that, he got pissed about that and the honourable admins of PL informed Karbowiak that since the pl killboards were overloaded, they were injecting false data into the killmails. Then i got wind of it and all hell broke loose.

    I wrote a fake killmail generator here (and this version for KB syncing) and released it to our members, as well as letting them know the most effective ways to post killmails. What happened next was chaos. Since the PL boards have accountability for who posts there, as well as API verification for all PL kills, we didn't have any killboard security issues. But for the rest of EVE, their killboards were flooded with fake mails. And since they sync back and forth with each other, the fake mails spread like AIDS and kept coming back even after they were deleted, because there is no cure for AIDS. Some of our members set up malicious killboards that ran on modified EDK code that would sync with my fakemail generator and then sync with all the other killboards. If you saw a mail in the past few days with a dozen different alliances on it and a ship with the most insane and (literally) random setup, it was a mail from my site. Personally I only posted exactly two fake killmails, and i set up exactly zero malicious killboards, so I wash my hands of all nefarious activity.


    I have just implemented logging on my site, so now the fake killmails will be logged and i will sell the logs to any interested killboard owner for 1 bil per month's worth of logs, payable to the pandemic legion alliance wallet(AKA mazzilliu or shamis orzoz or sniggerdly corp wallet). to anybody who wants to spam my logs, i only record the timestamp of the killmail and the victim's name so it doesn't take much space at all.



    [06:04] <ander> btw Karbowiak , since you've been scraping the pl killboard. I forgot to mention that it has fetched you killmail-data in random order from the available killmails for ips in the netblock 94.23.30.0/24 .
    [06:04] <12~Karbowiak> wah?
    [06:04] <12~Karbowiak> that might explain why the scraper fucked up the other day
    [06:04] <12~Karbowiak> and ran for ~16 hours before i killed it
    [06:04] <ander> we dont really allow scraping, but when it's done we silently injects other mails data
    [06:05] <12~Karbowiak> so basically, all mails we got from PL are fucked up mails
    [06:05] <12~Karbowiak> that doesnt exist and are full of shitty data ?
    [06:05] <ander> not all
    [06:05] <12~Karbowiak> but 99% of them
    [06:05] <ander> iut injects random
    [06:05] <ander> it*
    [06:05] <12~Karbowiak> why the fuck would you do that ?
    [06:05] <12~Karbowiak> seriously
    [06:06] <ander> cause we have a no scrape policy, we allow people manual viewing
    [06:06] <12~Karbowiak> ...
    [06:06] <ander> if people do automated scraping it'll inject
    [06:06] <12~Karbowiak> i should delete all mails with PL on them
    [06:06] <12~Karbowiak> just as a final halelujah
    [06:06] <ander> that'd be quote a big portion of your available mails
    [06:07] <ander> the thing is, automated scraping fcks things up
    [06:07] <12~Karbowiak> no it doesnt
    [06:07] <12~Karbowiak> and i asked you fucks several hundred times to fix a feed for us
    [06:07] <ander> and I said everytime that we dont have a feed available
    [06:07] <12~Karbowiak> but everytime its been 'uh, maybe' 'uh, sure' 'no' 'maybe' 'yes'
    [06:07] <ander> per policy
    [06:07] <12~Karbowiak> thats a fucking retarded policy
    [06:07] <12~Karbowiak> only fucking retards make up such a policy
    [06:08] <ander> no it's not. we'd rather drive traffic to our own boards for killmail views and battle comparison atm
    [06:08] <ander> be it spy hunting or other reasons
    [06:08] <12~Karbowiak> but you still expect being able to get mails from other boards
    [06:08] <12~Karbowiak> cause, the sharing only goes one way according to you
    [06:09] <03+ESCBot> Eve-Arena Feed started...
    [06:09] <03+ESCBot> Eve-Arena Feed ended - fetched 10 killmails, 0 new kills.
    01[06:09] <Captain_Thunk> we don't synch with anyone
    [06:10] <12~Karbowiak> can your board even sync?
    01[06:10] <Captain_Thunk> no
    [06:10] <12~Karbowiak> lol
    [06:11] <12~Karbowiak> seriously, its fucking retarded that you send randomly generated mails to people
    [06:11] <12~Karbowiak> esp. us
    [06:11] <12~Karbowiak> if you didnt want us to fetch mails you could have said it
    [06:11] <12~Karbowiak> instead of letting it cook up random mails
    01[06:11] <Captain_Thunk> think thats why anders telling you as he's just found out, normally he wouldn't say anything and let them figure it out eventuallu
    [06:12] <12~Karbowiak> yeah, but someone coded it
    [06:12] <ander> I mean it's not all mails
    [06:12] <12~Karbowiak> 1 is more than enough
    [06:12] <ander> probably a majority of the mails didnt meet scrape score
    01[06:12] <Captain_Thunk> yeah well, we're 15% srs bzns and 85% fucking with people, what do you expect? we just don't like scraping
    [06:12] <12~Karbowiak> heh
    [06:12] <12~Karbowiak> im 1% serious, 99% ban
    [06:13] <ander> but I'd expect a mail here and there is injected for good measure
    [06:13] <12~Karbowiak> but yeah, thanks for doing that
    [06:13] <ander> Karbowiak: I work for a company that works on anti-scraping solutions
    [06:13] <ander> try scraping yell.com and you'll see
    [06:13] <12~Karbowiak> thanks for letting me know, and thanks for randomly injecting bogus data lol
    01[06:13] <Captain_Thunk> D
    [06:14] <ander> http://blockscraping.com/ <- welcome to the company I work for
    [06:14] <12~Karbowiak> still a fucking retarded idea when its a fucking killboard we are talking about
    01[06:14] <Captain_Thunk> a feed will be done eventually, but its not exactly high on the list because, we don't really often need to synch with any other boards
    [06:14] <12~Karbowiak> like, amazingly fucking retarded
    [06:14] <12~Karbowiak> whoever cooked up the idea of doing that to a killboard
    [06:14] <12~Karbowiak> is a fucking moron
    [06:14] <12~Karbowiak> like, immensly fucking retarded
    [06:15] <12~Karbowiak> i can't even describe how huge a fucking douche the person is who cooked that shit up
    [06:15] <12~Karbowiak> its killmails
    [06:15] <12~Karbowiak> its not real life shitty fucking data
    [06:15] <12~Karbowiak> ITS KILLMAILS
    01[06:16] <Captain_Thunk> well, at least we warned you )
    [06:16] <12~Karbowiak> still makes me think you are a bunch of fucking morons
    [06:17] <ander> im sowwy
    [06:18] <12~Karbowiak> in all honesty, i dont care
    [06:18] <12~Karbowiak> but oh well
    [06:19] <03+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 5 ip: 178.32.123.13:0
    01[06:19] <Captain_Thunk> if I make a proper feed, can we be friends again?
    [06:19] <ander> Karbowiak: if you are nice I'll provide a difflist since it's a static generated line based on a famous mathematical formula in our case
    [06:20] <ander> but we dont really like when people scrape with no rate limit
    [06:20] <ander> causing disruption etc
    01[06:21] <Captain_Thunk> bear in mind Karbowiak, PL.com does get a disproportionate amount of attacks on it
    [06:23] <12~Karbowiak> no rate limit, we fetched from the last fetched kllid, to the latest, lol.. and no dont bother
    [06:23] <12~Karbowiak> if you wanna share your mails - you can suck my cock
    [06:24] <12~Karbowiak> chances of getting anything out of it, besides some of my jizz - is doubtfull
    01[06:25] <Captain_Thunk> lol
    [06:25] <12~Karbowiak> you can always try Beans - he might be more cheerfull
    01[06:26] <Captain_Thunk> no, I like a challenge
    01[06:26] <Captain_Thunk> I'm sure its possible to restore the love between us
    [06:27] <12~Karbowiak> :P
    [06:28] <12~Karbowiak> so, you feed bogus mails once - and wont ever ever ever ever do it again, never ever!
    [06:28] <12~Karbowiak> PL wont ever lie.. no sir
    01[06:29] <Captain_Thunk> not to you no - else we just wouldn't have told you
    [06:29] <12~Karbowiak> oh well - lemme know when you actually decide to make a feed
    [06:29] <12~Karbowiak> or somehow share mails
    01[06:29] <Captain_Thunk> will do )
    01[06:30] <Captain_Thunk> I'll even make it edk compatible so it's no different your side
    01[06:30] <Captain_Thunk> has it changed at all?
    [06:30] <12~Karbowiak> doubtfull
    01[06:30] <Captain_Thunk> kk
    06[06:32] * Kalafork wonders what the best tactic would be to take a brutix through a lowsec pipe
    [06:33] <Kalafork> just need the ship on the other end
    [06:33] <Kalafork> in solitude
    [06:35] <03+ESCBot> Cron API Fetch started on 470 boards.
    [06:47] <03+ESCBot> Fetch Started on 799 feeds (Start kll_id=7076526)
    [06:47] <03+ESCBot> Cron API Fetch ended.
    [06:49] <03+ESCBot> 4Thanatos lost by 4AAZlo from BABYLON 5. (Green Alliance) - in 04-EHC(0.0)[Insmother] at 2010.07.22 17:18 http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7195031
    [06:49] <03+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 6 ip: 178.32.123.14:0
    [07:03] <03+ESCBot> 9Rattlesnake lost by 9Lord Zithe from various Artists (None) - in Ichoriya(0.6)[Black Rise] at 2010.07.23 04:59 http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7195174
    [07:06] <ander> Karbowiak: dont scrape without permission again ;O
    [07:09] <ander> you realise PL has a ton of security experts who implement systems that sometimes make funny stuff happen :P
    [07:09] <03+ESCBot> Eve-Arena Feed started...
    [07:09] <03+ESCBot> Eve-Arena Feed ended - fetched 2 killmails, 0 new kills.
    02[07:12] * %ZigZagJoe (Ziggy@coldfront-B1F5DAC6.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout)
    [07:14] <12&Beansman> meh
    [07:14] <12&Beansman> what a mess
    [07:15] <12&Beansman> morning Karbowiak
    [07:15] <12&Beansman> what a cheerfull log to wake up to
    [07:15] <12&Beansman> 100 lines of rage
    07[07:18] <12&Beansman> ander, Captain_Thunk
    01[07:18] <Captain_Thunk> (
    [07:18] <12&Beansman> morning
    [07:19] <12~Karbowiak> lol
    [07:19] <12~Karbowiak> i got up at 5:30 in the morning
    [07:19] <12~Karbowiak> did you expect anything BUT rage ?
    [07:19] <12&Beansman> haha
    [07:19] <12&Beansman> i got up at 6
    [07:19] <03+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 7 ip: 178.32.123.16:0
    [07:19] <12~Karbowiak> i slept from 20:00 to 5:30 tho
    [07:19] <12~Karbowiak> lol
    [07:20] <12~Karbowiak> now im just waiting for Bjørn to wake up
    01[07:20] <Captain_Thunk> ander and I are badboyz4lyfe or something, it's just we feel we're obligated to do stuff like this somehow
    [07:20] <12~Karbowiak> so we can play Borderlands alllllllll day
    01[07:20] <Captain_Thunk> nothing personal
    07[07:20] <12&Beansman> Captain_Thunk: i see
    [07:21] <12&Beansman> seems like we haven't added any kills from for ages, unless Karbowiak deleted them all
    [07:21] <12~Karbowiak> i didnt
    [07:21] <12~Karbowiak> and i stopped the feed some time ago
    [07:22] <12&Beansman> fair
    [07:22] <12~Karbowiak> after i ran for 16h straight
    [07:22] <12&Beansman> last id is 6942785
    [07:22] <12&Beansman> and we are at 7150000+
    [07:22] <12&Beansman> almost 7.2m
    [07:22] <12&Beansman> last kill is 1 month old
    07[07:22] <12&Beansman> Captain_Thunk: any idea how long you've been injecting bogus data?
    01[07:23] <Captain_Thunk> no clue and it's very random as to when or if it does it
    01[07:24] <Captain_Thunk> idea being not to be immediately obvious
    [07:24] <ander> I have the diff file
    [07:24] <12&Beansman> k
    [07:24] <12&Beansman> ander: any clever way to apply that?
    [07:24] <ander> the id increment is based on an algorithm
    [07:24] <ander> just need to re-fetch the id's I list :P
    [07:24] <12&Beansman> and delete them?
    [07:25] <ander> replace
    [07:25] <12~Karbowiak> man, i wanna go to ComicCon
    [07:25] <12&Beansman> kk
    [07:25] <12~Karbowiak> http://www.cbs.com/comiccon2010/phot...-Con_2010/1/0/ signed autograph by Sheldon?
    [07:25] <12~Karbowiak> oh hell yeah
    [07:26] <03+PeterPowers> i'd prefer signed nudes by penny
    [07:26] <12~Karbowiak> meh
    [07:26] <12~Karbowiak> nude chicks you can get pretty much anywhere
    [07:26] <12~Karbowiak> you can only get one Sheldon
    [07:26] <12~Karbowiak>
    [07:27] <03+PeterPowers> wait there is a new hawaii 5-0?
    [07:27] <ander> the jew is funny
    [07:27] <ander> he has the same facial expressions irl
    03[07:28] * Vediovis (M@coldfront-26DAA5F5.terrhq.ru) has joined #esc
    [07:28] <12~Karbowiak> you mean Howard
    [07:28] <12~Karbowiak> :P
    [07:28] <ander> yes Howard!
    [07:28] <ander> the jew!
    [07:28] <ander>
    [07:28] <12~Karbowiak> Sheldon > *
    [07:29] <12~Karbowiak> Sheldon > Chuck Norris
    [07:29] <03+PeterPowers> i used to work with a guy who was exactly like sheldon
    [07:29] <03+PeterPowers> trust me, its a curse
    [07:29] <12~Karbowiak> Sheldon Cooper in a fight with Chuck Norris, would win by explaining String Theory to Chuck Norris, at which point Chuck Norris skull would implode due to the amount of information
    [07:29] <12~Karbowiak> BOO YA
    [07:30] <12~Karbowiak> or, rather
    [07:30] <12~Karbowiak> Bazinga!
    [07:31] <12~Karbowiak> and before you go 'wtf, implode? you fill shit into the skull'
    [07:31] <12~Karbowiak> blackholes
    [07:36] <12&Beansman> So ander, how do we go about this?
    [07:41] <12~Karbowiak> http://kensegall.com/blog/2010/07/th...y+(observatory)
    [07:41] <12~Karbowiak> lol
    [07:44] <03+ESCBot> Fetch Ended - Fetched aprox. 418 (7076526 - 7076944)
    [07:45] <03+ESCBot> 4Thanatos lost by 4Zizzo Untham from Infernal laboratory (Blind Octopus) - in Fageras(0.1)[Aridia] at 2010.07.22 21:00 http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7195451
    [07:49] <03+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 8 ip: 94.23.30.114:0
    [08:02] <12&Beansman> anders
    [08:02] <12&Beansman> ander
    [08:02] <12&Beansman> meh
    03[08:02] * Beansman sets mode: +v ander






    23:15 <+ander> Karbowiak: if you do something without asking firt, you'll get the same dirty data like anyone else who scrapes us
    23:15 <+ander> it's not like we have an exception for anyone who hasnt asked before
    23:15 <~Karbowiak> all it would have taken was a *hey karbo, stop scraping us - we dont want that - thanks*
    23:16 <+ander> Hey, we told you. I didnt see it until "AFTER" you had scraped us
    23:16 <+ander> and you were all smug and going "PL killboard is going so slow! "
    23:16 <+ander> I remember the time you specificly told us that and we were working on improving caching
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> i might have said that when the board was being hammered at one point
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> but that has no relevans in the whole feeding someone bogus data
    23:17 <+ander> yeah.. I guess who was hammering it..
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> was never us
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> the script ran for about 5 seconds
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> and it always ran during eve downtime
    23:17 <~Karbowiak> taking from the last successfull killid to the next last successfull killid
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> it never scraped from 0 to max
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> that'd just be goddamn stupid
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> and the times the PL board had been slow was during the evening
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> and the whole 16hr thingy the other day
    23:18 <+ander> you didnt ask, we have automatic systems
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> was cause the script borked on itself
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> and never died
    23:18 <+ander> if your scraping was short, of course we didnt see it
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> which is dumb as hell
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> it was, and it was during downtime
    23:18 <~Karbowiak> 12:15 or something
    23:18 <+ander> it's an auto feed thing that decreases the scope of sql queries
    23:18 <+ander> feeding limited data
    23:19 <+ander> cutting off players on km
    23:19 <+ander> or just giving in scope data
    23:19 <+PeterPowers> cutting off players?
    23:19 <+PeterPowers> you are modifying mails?
    23:19 <+PeterPowers> shame on you

    23:19 <~Karbowiak> shame on them indeed
    23:19 <+ander> to decrease load when automated scrapers such as youdao scrapes without asking
    23:19 <+ander> PeterPowers: only for automated scrapers
    23:19 <+ander> who havent got permission
    23:19 <+ander> not our fault really
    23:19 <+PeterPowers> allright
    23:20 <+PeterPowers> however if those feed system back to other machines in the exchange loops...
    23:20 <+ander> we've had russians httracking our boards, we've got chinese youdao and every other bot known to man
    23:20 <+ander> PeterPowers: then they better learn from their mistakes
    23:20 <~Karbowiak> why not make the feed, hell i dont know
    23:20 <~Karbowiak> hidden ?
    23:20 <+ander> or ask for official permission
    23:20 <~Karbowiak> or not there at all
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> hell thats an idea
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> not have it at all
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> instead of having it
    23:21 <+ander> cause we dont have a feed! we dont want to leech off traffic
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> but rig it to feed shitty data
    23:21 <+ander> there're reasons for our policy
    23:21 <+PeterPowers> ander: thing is you poison people who get mails from them aswell, fucking up mails for alot more people then those retards
    23:21 -!- Jopo [BLAH@coldfront-29D85C1E.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Jopo]
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> you do have a feed
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> https://www.pandemic-legion.com/kill...w_orig.php?id=
    23:21 <~Karbowiak> have fun
    23:21 <+PeterPowers> ander: better solution would be to 404 those tards
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> but i see why it borked
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> cause it was changed to the same way EDK shows the mails
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> with the whole popup| etc.
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> that explains why it ran for 16hrs
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> lol
    23:22 <~Karbowiak> but anyway, thats where we got the mails from in the first place
    23:23 <~Karbowiak> you could always, i dont know - limit it to x number of viewings pr. ip. pr. hour
    23:23 <~Karbowiak> instead of the scraping bullshit
    23:23 <+ander> PeterPowers: or they could just follow our robots.txt
    23:23 <+ander> we got a robots.txt which clearly disallows /killboard/
    23:23 <~Karbowiak> we're not a bot
    23:23 <~Karbowiak> but whatever
    23:23 <+PeterPowers> ander: fuck them.. they dont, the problem is people who use THEM as source
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> we already discussed it
    23:24 <+PeterPowers> and feed back to like eve-kill for example
    23:24 < Captain_Thunk> you should have just asked for a proper feed
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> we did
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> but everytime we did
    23:24 < Captain_Thunk> when?
    23:24 <+ander> and we said it was in the pipeline
    23:24 <+PeterPowers> or to some stupid other board like razor or whatever
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> it was *uhm, yeah - we might make that*
    23:24 <+PeterPowers> which then feeds back to eve-kill
    23:24 <+PeterPowers> or whatever
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> *yeah we'll get around to it sometime*
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> was back when OSHIT was still in PL
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> and after
    23:24 <~Karbowiak> and like a year ago
    23:25 <+ander> Karbowiak: you're so pissed when battleclinic scrapes you, and dont give you credits
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> and then someone found the view_orig.php?id= thingy
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> and we just thought whatever
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> they wont ever make a feed anyway
    23:25 <+ander> but you think it's fine to scrape out of us and not even link back
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> well, thats the thing
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> i dont care if anyone uses our feed to fetch mails - what i care about is that they dont allow others to feed from them
    23:25 <~Karbowiak> you dont fetch mails from us, thus i dont care if you would have said you didnt want to share mails with us
    23:25 <+ander> we havent asked you to scrape us, or index. but you do it without asking in a sneaky way
    23:26 <+ander> you dont link back or thank in any way
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> you never said you didnt want us to either
    23:26 <+ander> we got robots.txt
    23:26 < Captain_Thunk> |
    23:26 <+ander> it's pretty clear
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> so you can play it around just as much as you want
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> yeah, ok
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> i check robots.txt on all websites i go to
    23:26 <+ander> if you SCRAPE someone, you do it
    23:26 <+ander> if you're a normal user, you dont
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> its all part of my day to day thing
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> oh google.com
    23:26 <~Karbowiak> lets check googles robots.txt
    23:27 <~Karbowiak> either way, it doesnt matter
    23:27 <~Karbowiak> dont bother making a feed for our sake
    23:27 <~Karbowiak> even if you did i wouldnt trust it to not feed shitty data
    23:27 <~Karbowiak> lol
    23:28 <~Karbowiak> oh and Top Gear was released not long ago
    23:28 <~Karbowiak> incase you missed it
    23:32 <+ander> "hey we scrape people and steal traffic, but bohoo we whine when we get caught"
    23:32 <~Karbowiak> lol
    23:33 <+ander> well, it's accurate
    23:33 <+ander> you get caught with your pants down , simple as that
    23:33 <~Karbowiak> thats true
    23:33 <+ander> if you had bothered to ask, it's different.
    23:33 <~Karbowiak> im not saying its not - but its still dumb doing it
    23:33 <+ander> we'd have asked for simple stuff as linkback if you use our data
    23:34 <~Karbowiak> killmails, your data ?
    23:34 <~Karbowiak> its all CCPs data
    23:34 <+ander> it's our data if we chose to present it
    23:34 <+ander> want to check the lawbook?
    23:35 <~Karbowiak> that requires effort
    23:35 <~Karbowiak> and im all outa effort
    23:35 <~Karbowiak> but look at it a different way
    23:36 <+ander> I'll point you in right direction, even if data sources is from
    copyrighted thirdparties. a representation of database collected data belongs to whoever made the effort to collect it by EU law
    23:36 <~Karbowiak> the amount of data we used on scraping the mails from you, wasn't spend by others trying to scrape it
    23:36 <+ander> I really cant make out what you tried to say there
    23:36 <+ander> but no matter, we dont really care for the copyright or shit like that
    23:36 <~Karbowiak> i never talked about copyright
    23:36 <+ander> if people want to copy our mails on individual basis, be my guest
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> again, you're trying to move more into it than there really is
    23:37 <+ander> but scraping usage of cpu power , slowing down system etc
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> wow
    23:37 <+ander> without asking we'll do what we can to prevent and deter it
    23:37 <+ander> it's not our fault you got caught with your pants down with injected data
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> rite
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> people wants PL mails
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> but PL dont have a feed
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> but people realize EVE-KILL has PL mails
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> where do people fetch PL mails from ?
    23:37 <~Karbowiak> thats right
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> EVE-KILL
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> where dont they fetch PL mails form?
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> oh thats right
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> PL
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> thus
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> np
    23:38 <+ander> we didnt ask you to steal views
    23:38 <+ander> we "like" traffic
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> steal views..
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> you dont gain shit from views
    23:38 <~Karbowiak> you just gain a slower shittier board
    23:38 <+ander> Im saying, we like traffic.
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> why whine about us using your traffic then?
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> thats like, whining about air
    23:39 <+ander> cause we dont like anyone taking mails
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> but you still breathe it
    23:39 <+ander> to reproduce elsewhere
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> wow
    23:39 <+ander> where we cannot control it or gain linkbacks
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> ok heres an idea
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> we both just shut up about it
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> cause i dont care
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> and you care too much
    23:39 <+ander> anyway, if you want clean mails you better ask nicely
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> and you care so much you try and involve alot of dumb things into it
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> that doesnt have any relevans
    23:39 <~Karbowiak> thats not up to me
    23:40 <~Karbowiak> its up to Beans
    23:40 <~Karbowiak> my trust to PL went out the door
    23:40 <+ander> like we care what people think of us
    23:40 <+ander> the more people hate us, the better
    23:40 < Captain_Thunk> even PL doesn't trust PL
    23:40 < Captain_Thunk> (pretty sure anders a spy)
    23:40 <+ander> ´c
    23:40 <+ander> I spy for IT
    23:40 < Captain_Thunk> I KNEW it
    23:40 <+ander> and make life difficult for PL and make eve-kill hate us
    23:41 <+ander> so eve-kill can be best friends with IT instead
    23:41 <~Karbowiak> ohnoes
    23:41 <+ander> and laugh lots at PL
    23:41 <~Karbowiak> no we are making up conspiracy theories
    23:41 <~Karbowiak> now we *
    23:41 <+ander> if we wanted to save resources, do you think we'd link PL killboard
    23:41 <+ander> no - we WANT incoming traffic
    23:42 <+ander> it's good to build statistics, and CCP likes it
    23:42 <~Karbowiak> you still end up saying you dont want us to use your resources
    23:42 <+ander> yeah. I dont want YOU to use it
    23:42 <+ander> I want real USERS to use it
    23:42 <~Karbowiak> *sigh*
    23:42 <~Karbowiak> just forget it
    23:42 <+ander> if I can chose between 16million pageviews by different users , and 16million pageviews by ONE user
    23:42 <~Karbowiak> we wont feed your mails
    23:42 <~Karbowiak> ever again
    23:42 <+ander> I'll pick 16million users
    23:43 <+ander> "oh noes" , you can continue removing peoples npc killmails on the boards then..
    23:43 <~Karbowiak> yes
    23:43 <~Karbowiak> i'll go do that
    23:43 <~Karbowiak> all day long
    23:44 <~Karbowiak> you're being pretty dumb about all of this i might say
    23:44 <~Karbowiak> cause, i actually dont care
    23:44 <~Karbowiak> even remotely
    23:46 <+ander> I'd be happier if you removed all PL mails from eve-kill, k?
    47 <~Karbowiak> lol
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> you do know, theres two mails being generated right ?
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> one for killer and one for loser
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> so basically, you dont own shit
    23:47 <+ESCBot> Fetch Ended - Fetched aprox. 945 (7099365 - 7100310)
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> two people do
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> and in reality
    23:47 <~Karbowiak> CCP owns everything
    23:47 <~Karbowiak>
    23:47 < Captain_Thunk> which is why we dont need to feed or be scraped
    23:47 <+ander> whatever, majority of the people we kill are people who are too emberassed to post killmails.
    23:47 < FlyBoy> is it "your" data because your guy got the final blow? or because your pilots are on there? if the latter, then it's MY data too
    23:48 <+ander> heck majority in eve are retarded idiots who die to a bunch of misfits like PL
    23:48 <+ander> but we'll happily ask you to remove any mail you scraped from us, whatever other sources you have we dont care about
    23:48 <+ander> stop scraping, remove unclean data and we'll be satisfied
    23:48 <~Karbowiak> lol
    23:48 <~Karbowiak> how about, np
    23:48 <~Karbowiak> no *
    23:49 <+ander> then have fun with the bad data I'll gladly keep feeding injected data to you.
    23:49 <~Karbowiak> that said, we havnt used the feed from PL since it borked the other day
    23:49 <~Karbowiak> so its not really an issue
    23:49 < Captain_Thunk> probably best you dont fix it
    23:51 <~Karbowiak> i sense anger
    23:51 <~Karbowiak>
    00:45 -!- mazzilliu [mazzilliu@coldfront-CA9A9FA5.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #esc
    00:50 <+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 6 ip: 178.32.123.14:0
    00:54 <~Karbowiak> sup mazzilliu
    00:55 < mazzilliu> hi there
    00:55 < mazzilliu> whats up
    00:55 <~Karbowiak> the sky i hope
    00:55 < mazzilliu> ok
    00:55 < mazzilliu> i heard this channel is a lot of fun
    00:55 -!- Arkady [forcer@coldfront-711FE168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout]
    00:55 <~Karbowiak> lots of rage going on here for sure
    00:56 < mazzilliu> yes i expect there will be a lot more rage soon
    00:56 < mazzilliu> so im getting in ahead of time
    00:56 < mazzilliu> 8)
    00:56 <~Karbowiak> win
    00:57 <~Karbowiak> the more rage, the better
    00:57 < mazzilliu> yes
    00:58 < mazzilliu> how far back in time did you scrape pl killboards anyways?
    01:00 <~Karbowiak> hmm
    01:00 <~Karbowiak> think the feed ran for the past 4 months
    01:00 < mazzilliu> 4 months of killmails ahahahahaa
    01:00 <~Karbowiak> when we started it, it started from latest kll_id that same day
    01:00 <~Karbowiak> then 3hours later it ran from that kll_id to the latest at that time
    01:01 <~Karbowiak> meh
    01:01 <~Karbowiak> apparently it might have given bogus mails, and it might not have
    01:01 <~Karbowiak> either way its dumb as hell that you guys even have such a system in place - but i
    guess that has been discussed more than enough already
    01:01 < mazzilliu> greifed
    01:01 <~Karbowiak> unless you wanna invite ander into the conversation so you can continue it
    01:02 < mazzilliu> well you said his name now i bet he's been pinged
    01:02 <~Karbowiak> sorta my plan

    01:02 < mazzilliu> i hope you tagged all the PL mails that you got otherwise lawl
    01:03 < mazzilliu> if you can't delete them
    01:03 <~Karbowiak> probably did
    01:04 <+Femaref> what system?
    01:04 <+Femaref> PL supplying wrong mails?
    01:04 <~Karbowiak> yep
    01:05 <+Femaref> I loled
    01:05 < mazzilliu> i should implement specially tagged killmails for us to produce so that i can
    easily search to see who scrapes killmails, and mock them
    01:06 <~Karbowiak> you should, if you wanted to become even more dumb
    01:06 <~Karbowiak> but yeah, go for it
    01:06 < mazzilliu> i've always wanted to be even more dumb
    01:06 <~Karbowiak> didnt really think that was possible, untill you got into the CSM
    01:06 <~Karbowiak> but i digress
    01:07 < mazzilliu> by the way you didn't give me your api key when you applied for snigg
    01:07 < mazzilliu> how can we take your application seriously if you dont contribute to my spy project
    01:07 <~Karbowiak> come on, its PL
    01:08 <~Karbowiak> wouldn't suprice me if you had you forum write all passwords into the database in
    plaintext
    01:08 <~Karbowiak> just so you could start poking at loggin into peoples accounts/email/whatever

    01:08 < mazzilliu> oshit might not care about api keys or any security measure when you applied to
    them but in sniggerdly we take our recruitment standards seriously
    01:08 <~Karbowiak> taking PL seriously, is like getting an enema
    01:09 <~Karbowiak> you dont like either of it
    01:09 <~Karbowiak> unless you're gay
    01:10 < Captain_Thunk> I'm gay
    01:10 < mazzilliu> PL is full of proud gays
    01:10 <+ESCBot> Eve-Arena Feed ended - fetched 3 killmails, 1 new kills.
    01:10 <~Karbowiak> im so happy for you all
    01:10 < mazzilliu> saying that is like going to a gay pride march and calling us faggots. we're hurt
    by your inappropriate remarks
    01:13 <~Karbowiak> sowwy
    01:13 <~Karbowiak> but honestly, i dont care
    01:19 <+ESCBot> Proteus lost by Xanathos from Blue Sun Enterprises (Unknown) - in Horkkisen(0.4)[The
    Citadel] at 2010.07.26 23:17 http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7228469
    01:20 < mazzilliu> the gay community in PL is not going to be happy to hear that
    01:20 <+ESCBot> Wallet Update starting, cycle: 7 ip: 178.32.123.16:0
    01:20 < mazzilliu> we have been oppressed long enough
    01:20 <~Karbowiak> ruhroh
    01:20 <~Karbowiak> so mazzilliu
    01:20 <~Karbowiak> dont have anything better to do ?
    01:21 < mazzilliu> i do many things at once
    01:22 < mazzilliu> so this is not the only thing i am doing
    01:23 <~Karbowiak> i see

    01:23 <~Karbowiak> yey, one servers expiration date moved - now for the other one.. zzz
    01:26 < mazzilliu> i hope you dont mind me scraping your site for names
    01:26 <~Karbowiak> names, pilot names ?
    01:27 < mazzilliu> yeah
    01:27 <~Karbowiak> theres an easier way, lol
    01:27 < mazzilliu> how?
    01:27 <~Karbowiak> i'll let you figure it out
    01:27 <~Karbowiak> but go ahead, scrape all you want
    01:28 < mazzilliu> lol
    01:28 <~Karbowiak> dont think i didnt expect something like this beforehand, lol
    01:28 <~Karbowiak> all parts of the board is rigged at x number of pageviews pr. ip, pr. hour
    01:29 <~Karbowiak> but you can get around that by using multiple IPs - so no biggie
    01:29 < mazzilliu> now im gonna get mad that you have rate limits
    01:29 <~Karbowiak> ohnoes
    01:29 <~Karbowiak> atleast i dont give out bogus data
    01:29 < mazzilliu> you should feed false data instead of rate limit
    01:29 < mazzilliu> its much better that way
    01:29 <~Karbowiak> im sure
    01:30 <~Karbowiak> only retards thing that way tho
    01:30 <~Karbowiak> think *
    01:30 < mazzilliu> muahahha

    01:34 <~Karbowiak> lolol
    01:35 < FlyBoy> 404
    01:35 < mazzilliu> 4 0 4
    01:35 <~Karbowiak> agh
    01:35 <~Karbowiak> it was funny tho

    01:45 <~Karbowiak> you getting alot of names scraped mazzilliu ?
    01:45 < mazzilliu> i got all i need already thanks
    01:45 <~Karbowiak> that wasnt alot
    01:45 <~Karbowiak> never even saw you touch the server
    01:45 < mazzilliu> cause im stealthy like a ninja
    01:46 <~Karbowiak> you must be
    01:46 <~Karbowiak> whatever happened to xxAngelxx btw ?
    01:47 <~Karbowiak> did her mass finaly get the better of her?
    01:47 < mazzilliu> she's not using the internet for now, doing stuff in real life instead
    02:11 <~Karbowiak> amazing how many fags have begun posting fake mails since yesterday
    02:12 <~Karbowiak> think we've banned atleast 15 IPs today
    02:12 <~Karbowiak> somehow think thats just the start of it, lol.. right mazzilliu ?
    02:13 < mazzilliu> i wouldnt dream of causing greif to another human being
    02:13 <~Karbowiak> funny how it all started right after ander and Captain_Thunk told bout the whole
    'feeding bogus mails' to us
    02:13 <~Karbowiak> and even funnier, how you're now here
    02:13 < mazzilliu> its a conspiracy
    02:13 <~Karbowiak> it must be
    02:14 <~Karbowiak> simply has to be, theres no other explanation
    02:14 * Karbowiak bites his nails in anticipation for the next move
    02:14 < mazzilliu> how do you filter fake mails pulled from the boards which have feeders?
    02:14 < mazzilliu> i am just curious
    02:14 <~Karbowiak> so i heard something bout more emorage incoming
    02:14 <~Karbowiak> i dont rly see much more rage
    02:14 <~Karbowiak> and we actually dont
    02:15 <~Karbowiak> we let people report mails and delete them if they spot a fake - works fine

    02:15 < mazzilliu> perhaps it will be my turn to emorage when people start posting fake mazzilliu
    lossmails
    02:16 <~Karbowiak> why would you care, you use the PL board - right ?
    02:16 < mazzilliu> my kill death ratio is very important to me
    02:16 <~Karbowiak> sure it is
    02:16 < mazzilliu> on all killboards
    02:16 < mazzilliu> it's a matter of honour
    02:17 < FlyBoy> DAMN YOU SUBWAY COMMERCIALS TEASING ME WITH THE CUBAN PULLED PORK WHEN THE BACK WOODS
    SUBWAY HERE IS OUT OF STOCK!!
    02:17 < FlyBoy> ok, there's my emorage for the day
    02:18 <~Karbowiak> :e-honour:
    (6:23:42 PM) mazzilliu: (6:22:38 PM) Karbowiak: right
    (6:23:42 PM) mazzilliu: (6:22:54 PM) Karbowiak: feeding of boards disabled, and manual posting of mails disabled - thanks PL
    (6:23:42 PM) mazzilliu: (6:22:55 PM) Karbowiak: lol
    (6:23:42 PM) mazzilliu: (6:23:14 PM) Karbowiak: least you've now given me a reason to figure something out with the feed
    (6:23:45 PM) mazzilliu: lmao
    (6:23:50 PM) mazzilliu: we essentially shut down eve-kill
    (6:23:53 PM) Elektrea: raped
    (6:24:19 PM) Terribad: wolololol
    (6:24:37 PM) Terribad: ~API-verified~
    (7:58:03 PM) Karbowiak: awww
    (7:58:05 PM) Karbowiak: this is cute
    (7:58:05 PM) Karbowiak: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard...readID=1360098
    (7:58:12 PM) Karbowiak: PL whining on CAOD

    (6:44:50 PM) Karbowiak: man this is so annoying
    (6:45:49 PM) Karbowiak: so, apparently visits went from ~50k daily down to 30-35k daily
    (6:45:56 PM) Karbowiak: all due to the massive amount of fake mails, gotta love that
    (6:46:12 PM) Karbowiak: plus the people that have jumped ship - and started hosting their own
    (6:46:25 PM) Karbowiak: all cause a bunch of fucking fags thought it'd be funny to shit up something alot of people use
    (6:46:27 PM) Karbowiak: gotta love that

    Effect of Lag on User Base in Eve 

    by
    whatever dude
    Published on 2010-07-18 11:33 AM

    Hey, guys.

    I had a buddy who flies fleet ops with WIdot finally convince me to start playing EVE. He's a game developer, actually a studly project lead type at Volition. (Hi, Dave!) ...
    Read More Read More 3 Comments

    Lag is not the problem, motivation is 

    by
    Czech Lion
    Published on 2010-07-10 04:54 PM


    LAG IS NOT THE PROBLEM, MOTIVATION IS

    Most people blame today lag and server mechanics for many problems in eve. However i believe, that the lag itself, while game and fun breaking, is not the cause, only byproduct and good excuse.

    The eve 0.0 wars have come to massive multicoalitions warfare, which end up quite horribly due to servers not being able to keep up with the numbers and that wont prolly change for a long time.


    Eve groups
    Why do people group together? Grouping comes from human nature and convenience, and also in reducing fear of loosing. The big thing is that this grouping is reaction on the game changes that have been introduced in the last year through expansions. So while grouping is normal, and natural and is even good, as this is a social game, the massive grouping that kills any momentum and progress in eve can be accounted to the adaptation on the game rules.

    Sov changes
    We went from sov being determined by towers, to being determined by tcu´s, stations and ihubs getting 4 timers. That alone is not only frustrating for the attacker, but also totally demotivating, as it takes out the fun and brings military style obedience and rules into a game, that should allow people to relax and forget RL.

    Income changes
    With the anomaly changes eve got equality. Qith equality comes lack of any needs to aspiring decisions, to get better or more space. Few systems now can sustain whole groups of players, and it isnt important if in north, south, east or west. The importance of low sec systems for money milking siminished as noone rats in belts anymore.

    I dont how you, but i remember 2 years ago that the greatest achievments would be to have 1-2 r64 moons to get extra isk to build a titan. Huge battles were fought around them and the isk invested into getting them could be offset by getting the 8-10 bil a month you got from them without reactions.

    CCP made it so, that players dont have to fight for survival, for getting better grounds and more income. As you have the same, wherever you live. Making isk is easy, and no challenges are presented to corps/alliance to agressively look to acquire new or better territory. 3000 people living in 10 systems? Not a problem, so why do you wonder sov wars came to a halt.

    "If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." Karl von Clausewitz
    Lack of motivation
    With that said, there is no incentive outside of griefing, to go attack someone. the only think people get out of apathy is to defend, as there the motive is clear. You defend your castle, your home. But what the other side? They have nothing to gain, only problems with managing more and more space. So why would they put the huge effort into attacking someone as you dont get any benefits. Alliances try to get rid of space, but cant find enough people wanting that. As the numbers are in 0.0 are constant and those that want to make isk, just need 2-3 upgraded systems and enjoy.
    If there is no plausible reason to attack a region, people wont do it. If they know, by getting the region they get fatter wallets and strategic advantage and push their enemy on the knees, they will.

    Attacker is the stupid one
    If someone finds the resources and can put up big fleets for few days, he should be able to burn few stations unless the defender is able to mount a defense. The reaction times now can be a week, and you safe....why would any new or aspiring group take on crusade as they wake up 4x times in the night and once the defence is there so they wasted 4 nights, their enemy 1. Defender is so heavily in advantage, that it makes any real attacks only for stupid, naive or without life.

    The only currency in game that matters is invested time, if you tell me i have to spend 4x more than the enemy to gain pretty much nothing that epeen, iam not surprised all people say fuck it and wait for failcascades, who bores to death first.

    Look at last offensive.....SC didnt get a single station and burned to ground in the attempt to get one and other targets had 0 value to the defender, despite the attacker investing huge ammount of time into acquiring them. Thats demotivation.


    Conclusion
    Stop the equality of regions, get back moon prices to reflect the scarcity of resources, make changes to favour the attacker (like put +6 hours variable on timers on stations) and tune down number of timers. The system with towers hat its flaws, but there was at least something to fight for every minute with possible fuckup on stront. Wouldnt mind the system back, maybe with limiting the numbers of towers only to planets.

    Make stations destructuble, and people loose all the stuff inside. You would see how people would fight like lions if whole dread fleets are stucked there.

    Once you do that, you will see a huge change in the slow situation in 0.0 as attacker can blitzkrieg a region, and defender cannot just wait for it, but actively go defend or be ready every day to face the threat.

    And best of all, you don´t have to invest in new hardware a single penny. As the problem will be solved when people realize, hey even in 1000 players I can really make someones life miserable. The changes would break up the coalitions, as what holds the together atm is
    a) fear of being attacked
    b) innability to achieve anything in smaller numbers than SC or NC

    The fear wont go away, but the b. can. And that alone will make groups break up as they dont have to make compromises to achieve sov related achievments.

    Lag isn´t to be blamed, its an excuse of players over bad game changes, that ruined the 0.0 sov game.

    Czech Lion
    1 Comment

    Watch out leaders - Powerblocks internal politics 

    by
    Czech Lion
    Published on 2010-07-06 10:24 PM


    Watch out leaders - Powerblocks internal politicss

    tl:dr for lazy players - if yoour alliance dies, it dies cause your leaders or leaders of your powerblock were stupid retards without any vision and not cause you were attacked by superior enemy...thats only logical conclusion of your own block decisions

    Due to consolidation of eve, human nature, shitty game mechanics and epic failures on CCP hardware and software, we came to current political sovereignity structure, that is called powerblocks.

    1. POWERBLOCKS

    What is a powerblock should be the first question. Its a number of people working together under one leadership, following same standings and same goals. In todays Eve we have five powerblocks, NC, IT, Atlas, Drone, AAA, usually banding to to 2 superblocks of North vs South. Such block members can be dividied into several classes:

    1. Leading alliance(s)
    2. 2nd tier alliance(s)
    3. 3rd tier alliance(s)
    4. renters/guests of leading alliance
    5. renters/guests of 2nd tier alliances


    2. ATLAS BLOCK

    In this article we will focus on the intern block relationship and how beneficial or malificial it is for all parties involved.

    Lets pick up the Atlas powerblock apart. It consist of

    1. leading alliance – ATLAS,
    2. 2nd tier alliances - COW and GC
    3. 3rd tier alliances – Primary and HTA
    4. renters/guests of leading alliance – Green Alliance, Consortium, etc.
    5. renters/guests of 2nd tier alliance – NUTS, ED, G UNI, Blood Alliance, etc.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The structure is clear, however recently big shakeups came and destabilized whole 2 regions and that pretty much with little or not much outside military pressure. 2nd tier alliances dont pay rent and get even some space to rent out on their own, have usually some military experience and are able to do stuff on their own, at least to some lvl. 3rd tier groups are usually new groups with lot of inexperiences people, depending on leadership and guidance of the people above them.

    Both groups relly totally on leading alliance commands, which control their development through territory control and campaigns, that are run under their command. They are as much independent as their leader allows it. In return for their servitude, they got military protection and support and have much easier life.

    We can look at it as middle age society. A leader – king – rewards its knights with land and they swore otath to support him. They in order to build up their piece of land, build up castles and have slaves/servants to work to keep em up. Those are the renters and members of 2nd/3rd tier alliances.

    As far as settling 2nd/3rd tier groups at the edges for the space its like late Roman empire, with auxiliary and border troops guarding the space, while mobile best soldier moved to finally defeat the opponent.
    Its a beneficiary relationship at start, as long as certain things are respected and peoples ego and greed dont take over (happens usually every time sooner or later).

    3. GOOD THINGS

    Recapitulate good things from perspective of the alliances (well keep out renters as they get what they pay for):

    1. Leading alliance
    • lot of soldiers, people fighting up smaller entities, good recruiting ground, people taking care of unused space, meatshield around the borders
    2. 2nt tier alliances
    • military protection, having small pets like renters and 3rd tier alliances under them, sov space, getting to big campaigns, being invited to roadtrips withouh having to care about it
    3. 3rd tier alliances
    • starting point for growing up, getting into family, their members might learn by flying with the old guys, getting space instantly thus rainsing chances of attracting aspiring empire groups
    4. INNER POLITICS

    If we adapt this onto the Scalding Pass/Insmother crisis and lama drama. Atlas owns space from Omist up to North to Insmother and up to West to Scalding/Wicked Creek/Immensea. By owning i mean controls it and can decide who gets what. They setup 2nd/3rd tier alliances on the borders to defend it and use it as meatshield or numbers for campaigns.

    Geminate campaign was very cool, and atlas/cow/gc worked efficinetly together, while Primary. stayed home with renters and cared about HD. North war went to shit, and Primary.+co had a hard time against groups like Cursed or goons, which exploited their naivity and inexperience.

    Primary despite that tried to make the step from 3rd to 2nd tier alliance, by attempting its own campaign with Sys-K and prooving themselves. It didnt end up exactly well, but at least they tried and ofc agaisnt Coven/SE they had 0.0 chances.

    With COW/GC/ATLAS now home, a big problem arose around the whole concept. Wtf we gonna do, as more and more people from all these groups started to grow unhappy. Some cause of lack of targets, boredom, some cause they realized as a alliance, they have nothing to long for, no desires other than, hmmm lets run to curse or go to lowsec, build a supercap. It can work for some time, bot not forever. As people will look for options, like in a relationship, if they are unhappy.

    Now few lost battles with good groups like Cursed/Darkside./PL made them look stupid as well. Its not life threatening, but it makes your people think, wtf iam doing here, why and what for. So a enemy needs to be found, and usually its easier to find enemy in its ranks than outside.


    For sure Primary. must has seen this coming, first remarks in command channels, than simply being laughed and pointed at due to being shit, useless and resource harvesting. The logic is stupid, as you want to let me grow, but you dont give me a chance. Growing means loosing a lot, and getting experience you already have. Mostly the pvp veteran aspect prevails, and peopel forget they started as shit too (and some stayed as well.).

    Other groups around, some renters, etc. got the boot as well, somedeserved it, but the ratio behind all of this isnt very efficient for the after struggle situation. Atlas wont find magicaly superior small groups to live there, and cow/gc too, people being fucked over get very bitter and you create lot of enemies, which can cost you a lot in the future.

    So now the empty space is being attacked and possibly filled with hostile groups, that can be beneficial only for Atlas, but not for COW/GC. Atlas gains nearby reds, but whilst having safe space far off, its will be jsut a playground. For cow/gc it means their homes will brun, their isk will be wasted and what for? Why would i stick to soemthing that doesnt generate isk and only makes me a target for others. My best players move to Atlas, and have the same without the shitty home defence duties. And if we beat the invasion, what is nxt? Glory, power or cool, lets wait waht Atlas does nxt. You cant repeat the same thing allover to the people all the time. You need new material, or you will be left alone.

    Future steps will be setting HTA die off in order to get its corps into Atlas renter alliance, the scenario will be the same as with Primary. Most of the corps wont care much, however the work that went from the HTA leadership into this project is wasted from the beginning.

    FACTS:

    Were Primary so shitty and cow/gc/atlas so good? Not at all. They werent surely very good, but numberswise it was pretty much the same. Cow/GC wont max a fleet (despite having 2700 people), Primary was able to pull few times 150-200 people (having 2300), atlas was able to pull 1+something full fleet alone half year ago. Nowadays they have 100-150.

    HTA is the same. They full of people that do industry, rent, carebear. Wtf people await from them any wonders, they fight and die, but we all did at the beginning. We brough ravens, and drakes, had t1 stuff and fit totally shit. We learned and moved on. Sometimes it could be though people are born in legions with 60mil SP and snake set
    5. BAD THINGS

    Lets look at the bad things though:

    1. Leading alliance
    • being far from any reds and having waste empire to run the alliance dies of boredom and turns into industry alliance, while most pvpers go apathic, dont log on or join smaller agressive pvp units operating closer to hostile territory
    • having to command all groups under it puts a huge strain on leaderships and fc energy, it is nice at first, but later pisses people of, as in the end you can only rely on your alliance anyway
    • any failure of its pets/friends will be accounted to the leading alliance, no matter they spam the forums they dont care
    • failing tu support just one group under attack can cause a domino effect, where most people just take off to greener pastures in other powerblock, or will just do a halfhearted attemp blaming atlas for everything
    2. 2nd tier alliances
    • loosing identity and selfsufficiency, that means its very easy to depend on the leading alliance command and support, but it cripples own people surviving instinct nad makes them lazy.
    • loosing best players to the leading alliance. It happens, its natural but its like loosing every year the best hockey players from europe to nhl. The better you play, the more players you loose nxt year. Question comes why would the leadership
    • lack of own goals and campaigns. What can such 2nd rate alliance have as a goal. To be a supporter of leading alliance forever? The only plausible desire is to take over the leading alliance place, which ofc counts with that
    • not being allowed to grow over some power, by recruiting their corps/players, by stripping access to resources, by using their gametime for wars and exhausting the leadership by following leading alliance goals, not its own.

    3. 3rd tier alliances
    • being third in on a ladder of recruitment means one....you get shit or noobs. Doesnt have to be bad, but there are huge chnces you just recruited what leading alliance, 2nd tier alliances didnt want.
    • no isk, no resources, no income – again being 3rd in a queue means that wahtever the first guy left, the second collected. Whats left....not much.
    • you want to be better (as thats the reason to exist) but you are being watched suspicious by leading alliance and on top of that by 2nd tier alliances as possible threats. As why would they want you to become better than them? to loose the resources, players?
    • your players arent as good as groups above you, however sooner or later the groups above will start to tell you you suck, you are carebears, etc. Well thats the sign youre in trouble and you know eviction is on the way. It also means the groups above you turned shit as well, and need a outside enemy to blame the failures. In the end its unlogical to await you will be better than the people having better resoruces, players, and foundation than what you trying to do.
    • leadership either turns to lets scam as much isk out of it or really trying to make things work realizing its don quijote fight with windmills and burning out being replaced by the scammers

    6. CONCLUSION


    This is by far the biggest danger for any powerblock. Being killed or severaly weakened by internal differencies, and by flaws of this powerblock concept. Its far more dangarous thay any invasion, and we cans safely say, the invasion will be only a product of the internal failures, when enemies sees a opening.

    Its much easier to blame others for your failure and inability to adapt. The best thing to do is that your alliances works perfectly, at which point you go by example, but most of those that say you´re shit are despite huge time, resources, skill advantages, even shittier that the noobies they try to blame.

    What can be done against it? Be fair in judging people, see your own group weaknesses, be ready to let whole groups let go in order to make them happy, respect each other and dont think that even if its a game, and youre a leader, your not god, nor your empire indestructable and whilst sitting at your desk thinking of Churchill, Stalin, Alexander, Caesar your failure lies in your action, in your decisions, not others.

    Czech Lion

    PS. A question for the discussion, as you´re mostly members of either of the powerblocks, do you think it works differently in yours and you have the right, benevolent, cool leaders that will make it work?

    Alliance tournament 8 

    by
    xutech
    Published on 2010-06-20 10:30 PM

    Alliance tournament 8 

    by
    xutech
    Published on 2010-06-06 11:28 PM

    5 Comments

    A vote for Mazzilliu is a vote for Kugutsumen 

    by
    xutech
    Published on 2010-04-29 03:24 PM



    The kugutsumen forums aren’t some kind of gaming wikileaks. Many of us know that Eve online is only a game, and that it takes up a small percentage of the sum of our lives. But if you go to the kugutsumen forums, you do it because its the largest collection of posters from all sides of the game, engaged in heated discussion about every topic in the game. And one of the best things about the site is that when something happens, information gets posted. Posted from all sides, and certainly in uncomfortable detail. Because that’s the great part about the Kugutsumen forums, they are filled with a lot of angry arguing internet spaceship pilots. Its not one sided and there is no greater agenda to recruit, or bullshit, or lie, because those lies stink and they stand out, and the other forum members certainly take great joy in pointing them out, and that is a major attraction of the site.

    Kugutsumen isn’t some diabolical hacker. He’s a nice guy. He works hard in the internet mines everyday, and when he comes home from work one of his few joys in life is to pay for, and run an internet forum, for mostly free, for a bunch of angry spaceship nerds. And there have been times when he has found certain irregularities in EVE, and with CCP, and taken great glee in posting them and revealing them to the greater Eve community. That’s his right to chose to do it, and it looks like fun.

    He has been a great part of Pandemic Legion. He has moved from place to place in Eve. He has made friends in strange places and by strange means. But its a point of fact that his forums have not excluded any side of the Eve equation. There are posters from all sides on the forums, and they are as free as anyone else to argue and bullshit and lie and have fun.

    And that brings me to the next problem. The freedom to post the things that you enjoy, and the freedom to uncover the things which are not fair, which infuriate or confound you, are not free. Eve online is a game, and it is big business. Business does not want freedom of choice, and it certainly does not enjoy a voice which raises questions, or tests its patience, or points to uncomfortable truths, or even entertains dreams which head in the wrong direction.

    As ugly truths have been revealed, CCP has made a point of creating the CSM. As far as player run oversight commities, its about as meaningful as the league of nations or the UN. But it’s our CSM and we have a vote in who is part of it. If you know who you are going to vote for already, you should vote for them. But if you are unsure, or undecided, why not vote for Kugutsumen? Why not vote for his friend, and thus vote for him, and his site, for which without him, you would not have a CSM, or many other rights in the game you play so much.

    A vote for Mazziliu is a vote for Kugutsumen.

    A vote for Mazziliu is a vote for the Kugutsumen forums.


    Xutech
    6 Comments

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